Loyal Opposition:

Grand Ayatollah Hossein Ali Montazeri and Nobel Peace Prize Winner Shirin Ebadi of Iran

interviews and translations by Hossein Alizadeh

In the reaction to the Iranian hostage crisis of 1979 and the seizure of dictatorial power by a faction of the Shi`i clerical hierarchy, nearly everyone forgot that the Iranian Revolution—from its inception to its successful ouster of the Shah—was broadly popular and overwhelmingly nonviolent. Within Iran, however, the struggle for the original vision still continues. Fellowship takes great pleasure in offering its readers exclusive glimpses of two leaders of that struggle: one famous in his own country and little-known in the West, the other exactly the reverse. Both interviews were conducted in Farsi for Fellowship by FOR staffer and Muslim Peace Fellowship board member Hossein Alizadeh. —Eds.

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Grand Ayatollah Hossein Ali Montazeri is perhaps the highest-ranking Shi`i cleric alive. Born in 1922 in the city of Najaf Abad, Iran, he achieved the highest scholarly degree available to Shi`is at the astonishingly youthful age of twenty-four. Since then he has published nineteen books. One of them, Religious Foundations of an Islamic Government, revolutionized Shi`i political discourse by challenging age-old principles of political inactivity and seclusion. His convictions turned him into a political activist who spent years in jail and in exile under the pro-Western regime of the Shah. Religious Foundations became the inspiration of the 1979 Iranian revolution, and Montazeri was the assigned successor to Ayatollah Khomeini, the powerful leader of Iran.

However Montazeri’s uncompromising criticism of the government’s performance (particularly the eight-year war with Iraq and the 1988 massacre of political prisoners) led to his forced resignation in the spring of 1989. The man once referred to as “the future of the revolution” was now “the agent of anti-revolutionary forces” and “the idiot shaykh.” Although Khomeini's political successor, Ayatollah Khamenei, was formerly one of Montazeri’s students, he has shown little mercy to his professor since he came to power. Over eight years, every time Montazeri questioned the government, thugs attacked his residence, destroyed his furniture, set his library on fire, and even tried to kill him. Finally, after a famous speech in 1997 in which Montazeri accused Khamenei of dictatorship, Khamenei put him under house arrest and imprisoned members of his family and staff.

Although the house arrest finally ended in 2003, Montazeri still remains a symbol of political oppression and resistance in Iran. Ironically, the very person who laid the theoretical foundation of the current Islamic regime in Iran is today one of its victims.

We would like to thank Mojtaba Lotfi, the head of Ayatollah Montazeri’s public relations office. Mr. Lotfi was arrested soon after this interview on unspecified charges and has not been released as of today.

Fellowship: You are one of the founding fathers of the velayat al-faqih ("government by religious jurist") theory, which basically argues for an Islamic theocracy where high-ranking Muslim clerics are in charge of the political system. In practice, however, the experience of Islamic theocracies in Iran and Afghanistan in the past two decades has been  quite similar to the Catholic Church’s tyranny during the Dark Ages in Europe. In both cases, religious leaders used religion to justify immorality, corruption, and mismanagement that are by any standard against the very spirit of the religion. Considering the failure of politicized religion in creating an ideal society, what do you think should be the role of faith in society?

Montazeri: I have always advocated the governance of religious jurists because I truly believe that according to Islamic teachings, only a fair-minded and pragmatic legal expert with proven managerial skills is qualified for the leadership of an Islamic country. I should point out the fact that Islam, apart from its moral rules and rituals, has a comprehensive set of social, political, and economic guidelines. Whoever runs an Islamic country should be well-versed in the Islamic literature so that he can run the country efficiently. As a result, I am of the opinion that an Islamic legal scholar who is also qualified as a politician is preferable to other candidates.

What I am trying to say is that if people want to live their lives according to a religious value system, it only makes sense to have knowledgeable experts monitoring different branches of the government so that the officials don’t go off track. In an Islamic society, a knowledgeable legal expert is known as a faqih and the system is referred to as velayat al- faqih. So if you examine this theory more closely, you see that when we talk about the government of the legal expert (or faqih), what we really mean is the government of law (or fiqh). Now, if a religious legal scholar demonstrates good political judgment, obviously people will choose him to be in charge. Otherwise, his role would be strictly limited to that of a monitor.

In this context, the faqih works within a democratic framework of checks and balances, has a limited term of office, and under no circumstances may enjoy endless authority. A governing faqih should not be seen as above and beyond the law, and both he and his staff are accountable to their constituency.

Fellowship: There are some Muslim clerics who question the universality of the values of human rights and dismiss them as being tailored to Western civilization. For them, some of the most controversial issues include freedom of expression, equality of citizens before the law (regardless of their ethnicity, belief, or sexuality), and gender equality. As a prominent Islamic scholar, what is your take on that? Do you believe that human rights principles are only applicable to the West and are incompatible with Islam, or do you belong to the other school of thought that considers human rights as universal values which Muslim societies should also abide by?

Montazeri: Since its inception, Islam has always attached high importance to human dignity and respect for individuals’ rights. In the Noble Qur'an, Almighty God describes humanity as His representative on earth, the best of His creation and even better than angels—to the extent that angels were ordered to bow to them. In the Noble Qur'an, chapter 17, verse 70, the Lord says, “Verily we have honored the children of Adam….and have preferred them above many of those whom We created with a marked preferment.” In this sense, God has honored and preferred every single member of the human race, and no one is created better or worse than others. Our Holy Prophet, peace be upon him, says, “People are all equal, like the teeth of a comb”—that is, they all enjoy equal political and natural rights before the law. In a famous letter to Malik al-Ashtar, the appointed governor of Egypt, the Holy Prophet’s successor, Imam `Ali, instructed the governor in how to respect people’s rights. “Treat the people [of Egypt] with respect, kindness and mercy," he said. "Don’t be ruthless with them. Keep in mind that they are either fellow Muslims who are your brothers and sisters in God, or human beings just like you who have been created by the same Creator.”

Fellowship: In the past few years the Western media have conveyed a very negative picture of Islam, to the extent that they have almost made the word "Muslim" synonymous with "murderer" and "terrorist." Unfortunately, the acts of violence committed by of a group of radical Muslims—from blowing up the World Trade Center to bombing buses filled with passengers to attacking tourists and setting churches on fire— have strengthened the anti-Islamic stereotype among Westerners, who have come to perceive Islam as the religion of violence, murder, and intolerance. How do you think Muslims and non-Muslim intellectuals should respond to the crimes committed in the name of Islam?

Montazeri: Violence and murder, anywhere and under any name, are morally wrong and religiously unjustifiable. Islam is a logical religion and it is clearly against violence and bloodshed. Killing innocent people is not only taking away the God-given gift of life from individuals; it also jeopardizes the social order and creates chaos and a sense of insecurity for others. The 10^th century Shi`i saint, Imam Sadeq, is recorded as saying, “The Holy Prophet was against assassination and terrorism, because Islam and terrorism are not compatible with each other.” Regrettably, the deeds of a bunch of misguided and zealous Muslims, the reactionary and narrow-minded interpretation of Islamic law by religious fanatics, and the policies of a number of governments have led many Muslims and non-Muslims to believe that Islam is a violent and frightening religion.

The best we can do to counter this negative image is to fully study and understand Islam and then try both to educate others in it and to follow it in our own lives. Also, in order to implement religious guidance, we need to be mindful of the dynamics of our societies, the public interest, and societal ills. In short, Muslims have to be aware of priorities. And if they find a conflict between paradigms, they have to give up less significant values for the sake of the greater good.

Fellowship: In the West, people of conscience are truly concerned with the social and political oppression in Islamic societies, including your own house arrest and the Iranian government’s crackdown on people’s liberty. This group of Western citizens genuinely would like to reach out to Muslims and help them improve their social and political situation. Unfortunately, a number of Western leaders, including US President George W. Bush, take advantage of their citizens’ good intentions and have sold the military invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan as the" liberation” of those nations. How do you think the American public should help the Islamic nations in their struggle for civil rights?

Montazeri: If members of a society are neither willing to protect their freedom nor want to find out about their basic rights, there is little the outside world can do to give them democracy and freedom. If we want to address the root of this problem, we should increase public awareness about civil rights. As Almighty God says in the Qur'an, God does not change the destiny of any society as long as people don’t want to create the change among themselves. Also the Holy Prophet, peace be upon him, says, “You are being ruled in the way you deserve.”

Although no one can deny the negative impact of centuries of [Western] imperialism and colonialism on Islamic societies, we should not underestimate the role of home-grown tyrants and their dysfunctional and corrupt systems in creating despotism and dictatorship in Islamic societies. As long as our societies either tolerate or accept any form of internal or external oppression, we can’t expect others to come and offer us the gift of freedom.

It falls upon the intellectuals and the elites to shoulder the challenging responsibility of enlightenment, public awareness, and opposition to injustice. There is nothing more appalling than the indifference of intellectuals toward dictatorships. According to the teachings of Islam, those who choose to remain oppressed are as guilty as the dictators and oppressors themselves.

In light of what I mentioned, those concerned in the West can help the oppressed people of Islamic countries through cultural interaction, dialogue, and offering support to raise public awareness on social and political issues.

In regard to the situation of Iraq, I should say I am thrilled that the regime of Saddam Hussein (whose danger to humanity was greater than any kind of weapon of mass destruction) is no longer in power. However, I think the United States should leave that country as soon as the situation on the ground is stabilized enough to allow a free referendum under UN supervision. It is painful for me to see that on a regular basis American and international soldiers are killed in Iraq. I believe the US military occupation serves no one’s interests.

Fellowship: Throughout history, Shi`is have been systematically persecuted by majority Sunni rulers. Currently, historically oppressed Shi`i clerics control the political establishment in Iran. In this theocracy, how much freedom do you think the followers of other religions (both ancient traditions and the recently-emerged faiths such as Sikhism and Baha`i faith) should be allowed?

Montazeri: From the Islamic point of view, an individual’s faith is a private matter that cannot be imposed or determined by others. The Qur'anic verse “Let there be no compulsion in religion” well demonstrates Islam’s commitment to freedom of conscience. People should be given the right to practice their religion as long as they don’t abuse their freedom by insulting, attacking, ridiculing, or dismissing others’ belief systems. Nor should freedom of religion be used as an excuse to confuse and mislead the followers of other religions.

If a religion is truly interested in proving its superiority and gaining popularity, the best way is through scholarly debate and pressure-free dialogue with other religions. Historically, that is how religions succeeded in spreading and flourishing. The Holy Prophet of Islam and his successors (peace be upon them) gave complete freedom to the followers of other religions. They never looked down upon or made fun of others’ beliefs, nor did they allow their followers to do so. And the deep involvement of the greatest Shi`i saints in interfaith dialogue is both inspiring and amazing.

Fellowship: For more than half a century, Palestinians and Israelis have been engaged in endless bloodshed. Innocent people from both sides lose their lives to this conflict on an almost daily basis. Although the Israeli government’s aggressive policies (the occupation of Palestinian territory and the humiliation of the Palestinian population) are mainly responsible for this violence, many Israeli citizens genuinely want to see an end to the military confrontation. A significant segment of Israeli citizens are Jewish people who were forced by anti-Semitism to leave their home countries and come to Israel. Now they hope to live in peace and harmony with their Palestinian and other Arab neighbors. Do you support the two-state solution and the efforts of Palestinians and Israelis to create a peaceful region? What do you think about the rhetoric of some Muslim leaders who have wanted to "throw the Jews into the sea" and "wipe out the Jewish state?"

As you rightly mentioned, the root cause of war and violence in the Near East is the occupation of Palestine in 1948. The Jewish population was urged by Western powers to immigrate to Palestine and occupy the land. The occupation of Palestine made the indigenous population, both Muslims and non-Muslims, the victims of a colonial conspiracy. Prior to the occupation of Palestine, the followers of all Abrahamic traditions used to live in peace and friendship. Unfortunately, US backing for the occupation of Palestine has only made the matter worse. Washington’s whole-hearted support for the Zionists (who only represent a small percentage of the Jewish population) gives the green light to the Israelis to put more pressure on the oppressed people of Palestine. The formation of a Palestinian state to accommodate all the Palestinians and their refugees, and the return of the Occupied Territories as is demanded by the international community, is the least that can be done to relieve the pain and the suffering of the Palestinians. On the other hand, the citizens of the Jewish state should not tolerate what their extremist leaders are doing to other human beings.

Fellowship: How do you think the religious leaders of the Abrahamic traditions can collaborate to make our planet a more peaceful and safer place for all members of human race?

Montazeri: The best approach to creating a constructive atmosphere for interfaith dialogue and interaction among leaders of the monotheistic traditions is through emphasis on the unity of God, working for justice, and opposition to human idols. Religious scholars should focus on their commonalities and try to bridge the gap between their followers. In the Noble Qur'an (Surah Al `Imran, 64), Almighty God asks His Prophet, “O Prophet, tell the People of the Scripture, 'Come to what is in agreement between us and you: that we shall worship none but God, that we shall ascribe no partners unto Him, and that none of us shall take others for Lords beside God.''" I strongly believe that by following this divine formula we can achieve a united front representative of all monotheistic religions.

We can also use the existing international organizations such as the UN and the Security Council to accomplish more practical solutions. If we include representatives of all religions in these organizations, one might hope that their decisions would be enforced with greater authority.

My last wish is for Americans to live in peace with other nations, other religions, and other ethnic groups. I pray to God for the success of your organization in promoting cross-cultural understanding, interfaith dialogue, and social justice for all humanity. God bless you.

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Iranian lawyer and human rights activist Shirin Ebadi was born in 1947. In the years 1975-79, as one the first female judges in Iran, she served as president of the city court of Tehran. After the revolution in 1979 she was forced to resign. She now works as a lawyer and teaches at the University of Tehran.

As a lawyer, Ebadi has been involved in a number of controversial political cases. She was the attorney of the families of the writers and intellectuals who were victims of serial murders in 1999-2000. She has worked actively—and successfully—to reveal the principals behind the attack on the students at Tehran University in 1999 in which several students died. As a consequence of her involvements, Ebadi has been imprisoned on numerous occasions.

Ebadi is an activist for refugee rights, as well as those of women and children. She is the founder and leader of the Association for Support of Children's Rights in Iran. She has written a number of academic books and articles focused on human rights. Among those translated into English are The Rights of the Child. A Study of Legal Aspects of Children's Rights in Iran (Tehran, 1994), published with support from UNICEF, and History and Documentation of Human Rights in Iran (New York, 2000).

With Islam as her starting point, Ebadi campaigns for peaceful solutions to social problems, and promotes new thinking on Islamic terms. She has displayed great personal courage as a lawyer defending individuals and groups who have fallen victim to a powerful political and legal system that is legitimized through an inhumane interpretation of Islam. Ebadi has shown her willingness and ability to cooperate with representatives of secular as well as religious views.

(adapted from the Norwegian Nobel Committee's press release upon the award of the 20003 Nobel Peace Prize to Shirin Ebadi)

Fellowship: How did you decide to get started as a human rights activist? What was most decisive in your decision to commit your life to human rights and peace activism? Being a Muslim? A woman? Your law school background? Living  in an Islamic theocracy? Or perhaps your interest in the work of other activists?

Ebadi: As long as I can remember, I have always been a justice-oriented person. That’s why I decided to attend law school in the first place. After my graduation from law school, I joined the Justice Department as a judge, but unfortunately [after the 1979 Islamic revolution] they banned women, including me, from working as judges. After that I started practicing law as an attorney and became very active in the human rights movement. In retrospect, I think all the factors that you listed in your question have been collectively effective in inspiring me to get involved in human rights issues. It would be difficult for me to single out any single one of them as the most important.

Fellowship:. How do you feel about the concept that human rights are only relevant to Western societies, and that other societies should develop their own principles, based on their cultures and traditions?

Ebadi: Human rights principles are universal. You can’t use cultural differences as an excuse to dismiss people’s rights and freedom as Western or irrelevant to Muslims. Those who make these arguments are the very groups who have manipulated Islam to justify their oppressive policies and inhumane treatment of people. I think if you truly understand the teachings of Islam, you will be both an observant Muslim and an adherent of human rights.

Fellowship: You are in a unique position as the first Muslim woman, as well as the first Iranian, to win the Nobel Peace Prize. Do you think that Muslim societies in general and Iranians in particular are open to your ideas? What are some of the challenges and pressures you face?

Ebadi: I think all human rights activists worldwide face more or less similar challenges. Although the road that human rights activists walk on is bumpy and uncomfortable, I believe that we have what it takes to pave it. The existence of various social movements, the ever-increasing number of non-governmental organizations, the ease with which we can connect to the international community, and most importantly, the nature of humanity are all in favor of peace, tranquility, and friendship. We can use these foundations to further our work.

On a positive note, I should mention my good fortune in having the full support of my fellow citizens.

Fellowship: How do you think peace and human rights activists worldwide can support each other? I ask this question because many of our readers would like to find out the best way to support peace and human rights activists and the reform movement in your country.

Ebadi: Peace activists around the world can mutually support each other in a number of ways: establishing friendly relationships, offering moral support, exchanging views, and sharing experiences. In short, I believe the more connected we feel, the better motivated we become.

Fellowship: As our last question, we would like to know what keeps you motivated in your struggle for civil liberties. How do you overcome the pressures, oppositions, and harassments of the religious establishment and the government?

Ebadi: Under no circumstances do I consider it my right to feel disappointed or frustrated. On the contrary, as difficult and challenging as my job is, I feel truly inspired and determined when I witness the results of my efforts. When I see the support and interest of Iranian youth in our work, the international organizations’ acknowledgement, and the endless messages of solidarity from our global allies and well-wishers, it's like seeing the light at the end of the tunnel.

Also I should point out that I have already had some success in reforming the Iranian legal code. I am sure that our legal system needs more profound changes, but if we want to continue our struggle, we have to focus on the full half of the glass rather than the empty half.